Curse

Micro215 · Oct 28, 2009, 04:07 AM // 04:07

I honestly just laughed when I heard the reaper's quote of being an emissary to the autumn lunatic. Can't wait for more of the story to unfold tomorrow

Thalador Doomspeaker · Oct 28, 2009, 02:38 PM // 14:38

With this, we've also gained confirmation that the darkest tone of black, true evil exists (from the viewpoint of life and all its counterparts, even the normal death). I think that Dhuum does not only want to erase life from the Universe of Guild Wars, but change the fundamental rules of life and death. In my opinion, this would mean that it in this alternaty (which differs from us in every way), in this Void, life would mean death and death would mean life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Only (known) way to get sent there - a soul eaten by a demon, or scarab, maybe more.

I don't think so. Demons, scarabs, they are both part of the same Universe, they are living, and they were created from the Mists like everything else.

In A Tasty Morsel, the spirit consumed by Rebirther Jirath returns from the belly of the Margonite. After we've killed it, of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwalanah

Thank you so much for freeing me from the belly of that accursed beast! I was such a fool to think he could grant us a second chance at life. It's not that I'm unhappy. I just wish Charen and I had lived together longer before we met our untimely end. Now I realize that I should be thankful for what I have.

And in The Monk's Path:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nausuan

In a place called Diviner's Ascent lives a foul demon, the Eater of Souls. Destroy this monster and set free those it has imprisoned within its belly.

It seems that both of them, the Eater of Souls and Jirath (thus all of the Margonites and demons) eat souls to stay alive and produce energy for themselves. It's their (un)natural food. I think they have a special stomach which digest the soul. How does that happen, I don't know.

Putting this together, it means that the energy does not disappear, it will power another being. Thus the energy gets reused.

Dhuum would destroy (our*) energy and matter forever, without the hope that they would ever return.

*As I've mentioned earlier, the Void differs from the Mists in every way. This way it has an own "energy" and "matter". Let's call it dark energy and dark matter. (But not in the way as it is theorized in our Universe. Although who knows? It might turn out that there's a Darkness in our Universe as well. A true Darkness that seeks to end life once and for all...)

And I'm also glad that there's something much more worse than the dragons. The Elder Dragons corrupt, dominate and destroy, but at least they create life with their breath and they don't want to eradicate life forever.

Until then: The Emperor of Oblivion is coming...

Konig Des Todes · Oct 28, 2009, 03:31 PM // 15:31

While the spirit hasn't been fully consumed, killing the consumer would free the spirit. In my opinion, once the energy of the spirit is fully consumed, the spirit is gone - though the energy is not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

I don't think so. Demons, scarabs, they are both part of the same Universe, they are living, and they were created from the Mists like everything else.

But wouldn't Dhuum, also, be made from the Mists? If the Void (assuming it is actually new lore) is the opposite of the Mists like believed, then it wouldn't produce life - not even Dhuum. And just to throw a wrench, if demons and scarabs cannot send things to the Void due to being created from the Mists, then neither would Dhuum.

No matter the specific form of death, I think that a normal spiritual death sends the spirit/spiritual energy to the Mists (for instance, us killing Shiro and Khilbron in the Gate of Madness sent them to the Mists). But certain forms of death sends the spirit to the Void where the energy is trapped for eternity. "Death beyond death" instead of "life beyond death". And Dhuum knows how and wants to send things to the Void.

But either way, I like how Dhuum was made worse than the Elder Dragons.

BrettM · Oct 28, 2009, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Something puzzles me. Kormir became a god by absorbing a god's power. I think the consensus has always been that Grenth did something similar. However, it sounds very much like Dhuum still has power and a LOT of it, or there would be no reason to fear his waking. If so, then where did Grenth get his power? Was he always a being of god-like power, who simply promoted himself to acknowledged godhood by displacing Dhuum? If so, what might this imply about Menzies?

Thalador Doomspeaker · Oct 28, 2009, 07:40 PM // 19:40

I'm starting to think that Grenth did not take Dhuum's power, but only usurped his throne. It does not say anything about taking his power, only this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Frozenwind

Long have the bards sung of Grenth's defeat of Dhuum, the former ruler of the Underworld. With the help of the rebellious Reapers, Grenth usurped Dhuum's throne. But the books and songs only tell part of the tale. You see, Dhuum was not fully destroyed; Grenth was simply not powerful enough to slay him. Instead, he forced Dhuum into a state of dormancy and imprisoned him within the Hall of Judgment, trapped behind massive enchanted doors and layers of divine magic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper of the Chaos Planes

Before the time of Grenth, when death was ruled by a cruel and unjust god, there stood a tower and a throne on this very plain. But Grenth rose up and destroyed the one called Dhuum and shattered down his tower, leaving only these storms of chaos as a reminder of the power once held dominion here.

It also confirms that this Reaper believed that Dhuum was dead. Until now...

Now, if he had taken Dhuum's power, he could've slain Dhuum. This strongly implies that Grenth just took the mantle of God of Death and imprisoned Dhuum while hoping that he would never return again. The Ender of All was still strong, though the enchanted doors and the layers of divine magic could've kept him contained forever. But Grenth didn't think about Final Judge's unique ability (could be due to the connection with the Void), which draws power from the death of others.

The better question would be: how did Grenth reach the power that is almost equal to the current gods'? Perhaps they did harness the power of the Elder Dragons, or were always that powerful?

And the most important question: Where did Dhuum come from? How did he become that powerful?

Gmr Leon · Oct 28, 2009, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

With this, we've also gained confirmation that the darkest tone of black, true evil exists (from the viewpoint of life and all its counterparts, even the normal death). I think that Dhuum does not only want to erase life from the Universe of Guild Wars, but change the fundamental rules of life and death. In my opinion, this would mean that it in this alternaty (which differs from us in every way), in this Void, life would mean death and death would mean life.

Dhuum would destroy (our*) energy and matter forever, without the hope that they would ever return.

*As I've mentioned earlier, the Void differs from the Mists in every way. This way it has an own "energy" and "matter". Let's call it dark energy and dark matter. (But not in the way as it is theorized in our Universe. Although who knows? It might turn out that there's a Darkness in our Universe as well. A true Darkness that seeks to end life once and for all...)

And I'm also glad that there's something much more worse than the dragons. The Elder Dragons corrupt, dominate and destroy, but at least they create life with their breath and they don't want to eradicate life forever.

I'd just like to say here that I think you're stretching the little we know a bit thin. We have one passing mention of the Void, nothing more, and you're extending it to being some anti-Mists of sorts. Likewise, you're suggesting Dhuum is pure evil and wants to eradicate life forever, which, while moderately implied, the eradication is not. All we've heard is that were he to seize power again, the rules of life, death, and undeath would dramatically change. We simply do not know what the implications of this are.

This isn't to say Konig isn't either (seriously, thinking Mad King Thorn really had a pony! Such a poignant offense!) mind you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

The better question would be: how did Grenth reach the power that is almost equal to the current gods'? Perhaps they did harness the power of the Elder Dragons, or were always that powerful?

And the most important question: Where did Dhuum come from? How did he become that powerful?

Why would he or they need to harness the power of the Elder Dragons? The other pieces of dialogue suggest he had the help of the Reapers, perhaps it was this combined power that permitted him to defeat Dhuum. Afterward, it may be that he gained an amount of power similar to that of the Gods. Similar scenarios could have occurred with the other Gods, albeit they may actually have been able to overtake their predecessors.

As to where Dhuum came from..Until we find out more, it may best to just assume he was like Abaddon, usurping his predecessor and, like the case with Kormir, seizing its power.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 29, 2009, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

This isn't to say Konig isn't either (seriously, thinking Mad King Thorn really had a pony! Such a poignant offense!) mind you.

I said such a thing? I certainly cannot find me saying such a thing (and no, no edited posts).

I have two ideas on Grenth, for how he is a god now, since Dhuum didn't die.

Grenth knows of a way to steal a part of a gods' power - thus he stole some of Dhuum's power to become the God of Death, and some of Abaddon's power to become the God of Ice.
More likely (in my opinion), Grenth was the God of Ice before fighting Dhuum, but was weaker than Dhuum, thus needing the help of the Reapers.

Gmr Leon · Oct 29, 2009, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

More likely (in my opinion), Grenth was the God of Ice before fighting Dhuum, but was weaker than Dhuum, thus needing the help of the Reapers.

So..Assuming Abaddon was still in the picture..We'd have had:
Abaddon
Balthazar
Dhuum
Dwayna
Grenth
Lyssa
Melandru

With Grenth ruling over ice and Abaddon ruling over water...That still strikes me as a bit too overlapping.

draxynnic · Oct 29, 2009, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

What BrettM says is true. Grenth made the most terrible mistake of all. He left alive a god, who wishes to end all life forever, changing the fundamental rules of life, death and undeath in the process, drastically.

I don't think there's any indication Dhuum actually wants to eradicate all life. It seems that his modus operandi, however, is consuming the spirits of the dead when they DO arrive. So he has no problem with life, but if he won there would be no afterlife - and since everyone's gonna die sometime, him being in charge would thus be bad for everybody even if it had no result in the material world apart from Necromancers and Ritualists losing Grenth as a patron.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Dhuumspeaker

Yeah, however it reminds me of the Lich King's former state from Warcraft. Forced into that magical ice, which is in our case magical doors and layers of divine magic. Perhaps he was able to telepathically command his troops into following Abaddon.

It's a fairly common concept - the imprisoned god that can still communicate with its followers at some level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Dragonspeaker

Edit: I really wish I had written 'Dhuumspeaker' instead of 'Doomspeaker'. :P

But how does that synchronise with your Elder Dragon advocacy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Which is true. However, new spirits seem to have to go to the Underworld (unless they get "special treatment" like Shiro and Ural).

Aye. The impression I've always had is that the standard treatment is they go to the UW first, then Grenth decides where they go from there. Put Dhuum in charge instead, and, well... Omnomnom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Only (known) way to get sent there - a soul eaten by a demon, or scarab, maybe more.

Actually, according to the quests, a soul eaten by a scarab (or even a demon - the completion of the Tasty Morsel quest actually does release Kwahlunah) is released on the death of the 'eater'. This could be a 'takes time to digest' thing, but the daughters in the Family Soul quest are released despite having been in Kephket's belly for centuries. It seems to me that souls eaten by a demon or scarab aren't destroyed, but rather imprisoned and used as a power source by the eater.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

Was he always a being of god-like power, who simply promoted himself to acknowledged godhood by displacing Dhuum? If so, what might this imply about Menzies?

Suggesting that he might be at least as powerful as Grenth?

'Tis possible, although we don't know how much power Grenth has gathered since by being in charge of the UW - this might mean that even if Grenth and Menzies were both at a similar level once, Grenth could be well ahead now. (Possibly even strong enough to take Dhuum out if he DOES come back through those doors... be an interesting twist, although the literal Deus Ex Machina may prove unsatisfying.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

With Grenth ruling over ice and Abaddon ruling over water...That still strikes me as a bit too overlapping.

Agreed, although that leaves the question of just what he was beforehand. A minion of Dhuum that had enough of taking spirits to be eaten and rebelled (possibly the leader of the Reapers, although the different appearances must be noted)? A mortal hero that ascended? (Maybe he did ascend much like Kormir, but for whatever reason couldn't take all of Dhuum's power - just a portion while the rest had to be shut away where it eventually recoalesced.)

Or maybe the overlap isn't actually a problem - we could postulate, for instance, that Grenth was originally a minor demigod of cold, possibly under Abaddon's auspices, that got himself promoted by seizing the Underworld off Dhuum (possibly, even likely, with the support of the other gods).

Thalador Doomspeaker · Oct 29, 2009, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draxynnic

Or maybe the overlap isn't actually a problem - we could postulate, for instance, that Grenth was originally a minor demigod of cold, possibly under Abaddon's auspices, that got himself promoted by seizing the Underworld off Dhuum (possibly, even likely, with the support of the other gods).

The first part seems quite reasonable.

Although, King Frozenwind said that Grenth had usurped Dhuum with the help of the seven rebellious reapers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Frozenwind

Long have the bards sung of Grenth's defeat of Dhuum, the former ruler of the Underworld. With the help of the rebellious Reapers, Grenth usurped Dhuum's throne.

There's no mentioning of the support of any of the current gods at that time. Perhaps they've just only agreed, that if Grenth was powerful enough to usurp Dhuum, then do it.

Nuime · Oct 29, 2009, 06:17 PM // 18:17

I know this may be a bit of a stretch... but I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see Dhuum have somewhat of a dragon appearance (if we ever get to see him!). I know all the time-line stuff says that the Elder Dragons existed before The Six, but does that only apply to the current 6? Perhaps one of these Dragons somehow became a god at some point rather than going into that hibernation-like state like the rest? Possibly even before that point. I mean... the "Underworld" could have existed before the gods since they apparently are a "newer" thing (in the grand scheme of things) so someone/thing would have had to rule over the Underworld before The Six even existed, possibly during the time of the Elder Dragons.

Though at that point I'm not sure what Dhuum's motivations would be for helping Abbadon rather than just working on getting out/waking up the other Elder Dragons would be if that were the case... Maybe some strange plot to raise Abbadon up to have him get rid of the other gods, have Abbadon help spring him from the Hall of Judgements and then crush him too. Taking the "pure evil" approach on that one.

Yeah I know... wild speculation with not a lot to back it up aside from the fact I could see Anet using this to try and make some sort of connection to GW2.

Of course I could be totally off base and it's more of just a "let's wrap up this story" thing and it'll have nothing to do with the Elder Dragons. ha ha. Just wanted to toss this into the mix, even if it's completely off base. It's just something that's been kinda nagging at my mind since this all started. Feel free to completely tell me why this isn't even a viable option, at least then my mind will shut up over this silly hypothesis.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 29, 2009, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Actually, according to the quests, a soul eaten by a scarab (or even a demon - the completion of the Tasty Morsel quest actually does release Kwahlunah) is released on the death of the 'eater'. This could be a 'takes time to digest' thing, but the daughters in the Family Soul quest are released despite having been in Kephket's belly for centuries. It seems to me that souls eaten by a demon or scarab aren't destroyed, but rather imprisoned and used as a power source by the eater.

Kephket was recent to the area though, so the souls of the daughters might not have been eaten 200 years ago, but 3 (approx. time when Kephket arrived, I'd guess).

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Suggesting that he might be at least as powerful as Grenth?

'Tis possible, although we don't know how much power Grenth has gathered since by being in charge of the UW - this might mean that even if Grenth and Menzies were both at a similar level once, Grenth could be well ahead now. (Possibly even strong enough to take Dhuum out if he DOES come back through those doors... be an interesting twist, although the literal Deus Ex Machina may prove unsatisfying.)

We also don't know if Grenth wasn't always a god (of ice), or if Grenth has a way to steal some of a gods' power (some from Dhuum, and some from Abaddon *water->ice*). We also do not know what state Menzies is and was in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

possibly the leader of the Reapers, although the different appearances must be noted

Difference in appearance? We don't know what Grenth looks like. And the depictions of him put him similar to that of a Reaper - but with legs and a skull. For all we know, the legs could be a humanization and the skull could be a mask.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Or maybe the overlap isn't actually a problem - we could postulate, for instance, that Grenth was originally a minor demigod of cold, possibly under Abaddon's auspices, that got himself promoted by seizing the Underworld off Dhuum (possibly, even likely, with the support of the other gods).

Except for the "under Abaddon's auspices" part, that is what I was thinking. And could be the case for Menzies if so (Minor God of Shadows and Destructions). Perhaps, if these "minor gods" do exist, they are simply "Lords" (hence "Lord of Destuction" for Menzies), and Grenth was once a "Lord of Ice" - which may even have been taken over by Ice King Frozenwind, which would explain why he is seemingly the most knowledgeable servant of Grenth. If this is the case, we may even be able to call Thorn the "Lord of Madness" - assuming Thorn is on par in power to Ice King Frozenwind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuime

I know this may be a bit of a stretch... but I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see Dhuum have somewhat of a dragon appearance (if we ever get to see him!). I know all the time-line stuff says that the Elder Dragons existed before The Six, but does that only apply to the current 6? Perhaps one of these Dragons somehow became a god at some point rather than going into that hibernation-like state like the rest? Possibly even before that point. I mean... the "Underworld" could have existed before the gods since they apparently are a "newer" thing (in the grand scheme of things) so someone/thing would have had to rule over the Underworld before The Six even existed, possibly during the time of the Elder Dragons.

Though at that point I'm not sure what Dhuum's motivations would be for helping Abbadon rather than just working on getting out/waking up the other Elder Dragons would be if that were the case... Maybe some strange plot to raise Abbadon up to have him get rid of the other gods, have Abbadon help spring him from the Hall of Judgements and then crush him too. Taking the "pure evil" approach on that one.

Dhuum's intentions don't seem to be similar to those of the Elder Dragons. The Elder Dragons are seemingly more intent on ruling and twisting, while Dhuum is seemingly more about what his name sounds like. That is, Dhuum is seemingly more intend on more of the removal of life (or should I say, spirits), not converting it.

Unendingfear · Oct 30, 2009, 03:09 AM // 03:09

We most likely will e fighting Dhuum in one form or another. I think he may be a Dervish

Konig Des Todes · Oct 30, 2009, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Due to new skills that were put up on the wiki (do we have proof they are truthful?), we will be fighting Dhuum, and he has two skills listed as "Scythe Attacks" - however, they have durations...

I'm skeptical on those skills.

Unendingfear · Oct 30, 2009, 03:26 AM // 03:26

I am a tad skeptical myself, but if they are true, that would be cool :P

draxynnic · Oct 30, 2009, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Kephket was recent to the area though, so the souls of the daughters might not have been eaten 200 years ago, but 3 (approx. time when Kephket arrived, I'd guess).

The impression I had from teh dialogue was that it happened shortly after tha father mercy-killed the daughters (likely when the father was still alive, or he would probably have been consumed by Kephket as well). Kephket may be a recent arrival to Prophet's Path, but she could have been hanging around the Arid Sea two hundred years ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Difference in appearance? We don't know what Grenth looks like. And the depictions of him put him similar to that of a Reaper - but with legs and a skull. For all we know, the legs could be a humanization and the skull could be a mask.

We did know about the mask at least, though (are there any depictions of Grenth that shows he has legs, or might the legs of the Avatar of Grenth simply because the avatar form magic can only go so far)? That the mask is an affectation - or even a symbol of rank - would certainly explain that difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Except for the "under Abaddon's auspices" part, that is what I was thinking. And could be the case for Menzies if so (Minor God of Shadows and Destructions). Perhaps, if these "minor gods" do exist, they are simply "Lords" (hence "Lord of Destuction" for Menzies), and Grenth was once a "Lord of Ice" - which may even have been taken over by Ice King Frozenwind, which would explain why he is seemingly the most knowledgeable servant of Grenth. If this is the case, we may even be able to call Thorn the "Lord of Madness" - assuming Thorn is on par in power to Ice King Frozenwind.

Interesting observations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuime

Though at that point I'm not sure what Dhuum's motivations would be for helping Abbadon rather than just working on getting out/waking up the other Elder Dragons would be if that were the case... Maybe some strange plot to raise Abbadon up to have him get rid of the other gods, have Abbadon help spring him from the Hall of Judgements and then crush him too. Taking the "pure evil" approach on that one.

There doesn't actually appear to be any evidence that the Elder Dragons are allied in any fashion. If Dhuum is an Elder Dragon, it's not impossible that he might have seen his competition getting trapped in an expanded Realm of Torment as a good thing.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 30, 2009, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

The impression I had from teh dialogue was that it happened shortly after tha father mercy-killed the daughters (likely when the father was still alive, or he would probably have been consumed by Kephket as well). Kephket may be a recent arrival to Prophet's Path, but she could have been hanging around the Arid Sea two hundred years ago.

It does seem like that, though with knowing Kephket's current position only being rather recent in lore, I question the time. Also, that would mean the creature is over 200 years old. I somehow doubt this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

We did know about the mask at least, though (are there any depictions of Grenth that shows he has legs, or might the legs of the Avatar of Grenth simply because the avatar form magic can only go so far)? That the mask is an affectation - or even a symbol of rank - would certainly explain that difference.

While we don't see legs, we do have this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grenth

Statues of Grenth depict the god with the body of a man and the skeletal head of a drawn-faced beast. Often, there are followers at his feet, grasping toward his open, clawed hands, clamoring for the powers the unforgiving deity may feel so inclined to heap upon his subjects.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Interesting observations.

Something to note: The Reaper of the Labyrinth at one time calls Grenth the Lord of Death - not God of Death (well, other times he calls him death god).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clear the Chamber;Reaper of the Labyrinth

This area seems safer now. I hope that we will be granted an audience with Grenth soon.

May the Lord of Death treat you with mercy while you are in his realm.

draxynnic · Oct 31, 2009, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Ack! Tyop immortalised in quoting!

My point is that Kephket was a recent arrival - but she came from somewhere. My hypothesis is that she was in the Arid Sea at the time of Turai's pilgrimmage (probably attracted by the opportunity to pick off the stragglers along the way), left the area of the Prophecies map before Prophecies began (possibly south to Elona), finally moving to Prophet's Path and meeting her demise to some hero.

I also find it interesting that Kephket had to wait for the girls to die rather than just leading her brood in to claim them dead or alive. The obvious explanation is that she wasn't nearly so powerful back then, possibly just a regular Scarab of her brood or even a youngling.

Jonii · Oct 31, 2009, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

I'm really curious about Dhuum's appearance, though. I still not believe that he is insectoid.

If Arachnia was really a giant spider god Abaddon overthrew, than I see no reason why Dhuum can't be an insect-like god.

Lakdav · Nov 01, 2009, 12:25 PM // 12:25

This "Void" reminds me of Void in the elder scrolls games. (In theory there is some connection between the daedra princes of the elder scrolls and the gods of GW universe lorewise).

In the elder scrolls, Sithis is the lord of the void (also patron deity of the dark brotherhood assassin guild). The Void is a state of some kind of ultimate non-existing. However Sithis is not a daedra, that much is certain.

Perhaps Dhuum is not a god in GW either. All the 6 gods have power over certain existing things, but Dhuum seems to draw pover from non-existing, from ultimate demise. From true death.

That said, Grenth could not kill Dhuum, becouse Dhuum himself holds the power of death, while Grenth's kind of death is more like a treshold to another state of being.
Grenth was a minor god or lord of ice, freezing (thus inprisoning) power. Thats all he could do. This said, Abaddon was not completely destroyed either, becouse the power of non-existing is not in the hands of any of the 5 or 6 gods.

I think Dhuum was there from the very beginning of the entire universe of GW, much like the "Nothing" from which "Something" was born. Kinda like Khaos from greek mythology.